INTERVIEW WITH BRUCE MCTAVISH, CONCLUSION

This is the last of 3 parts.

TL: Let’s talk about the WBC. You’ve been in the WBC for several decades now. You’ve run the referees’ seminar at their conventions for the last seven years. The WBC often takes a lot of heat, especially the president, Jose Sulaiman, which is something I think is often justified. What can you tell us about the WBC and Jose Sulaiman that a lot of outsiders don’t know?

BM: It is a fraternity. Jose Sulaiman looks after his people and he’s very faithful. His premise is loyalty. He says ‘If you’re loyal to me, I’ll be loyal to you.’ When you get in certain circumstances, you’ll find out that a lot of people will walk away from you, then you turn around and find someone like Jose will show his loyalty back to you.

TL: I’ve seen the WBC up close at their conventions. There’s a lot of very good, competent people in the organization. People like yourself who do their best to be the best referee, a good competent judge, people on the ratings committee who spend countless hours pouring over tapes of fights so they can rank fighters. These are what one might call the foot soldiers, who all seem to go about their job with proper enthusiasm. But a lot of what comes out of management, in particular Sulaiman, makes little sense, like stripping of titles, creating endless hoops for boxers to jump through to get title shots, sometimes blatant favoritism, and enormous sanction fees. Can you comment on any of this?

BM: No, because I’m not on that side of the camp. When I get an assignment I do my job. When I go to seminars I give lectures and train people. So that’s my side of the camp. The other side of the camp I don’t know what happens and I don’t get involved in it so it would be unfair of me to comment.

TL: Here’s one for you that will illustrate what I feel is the biggest problem with the sanctioning bodies. A few months back in Japan there was a WBA super flyweight title fight between Nobuo Nashiro and Kohei Kono, which Nashiro won by split decision. However, Nashiro became just one of three “champions” in the very same weight division recognized by the WBA. Critisan Mijares had been elevated by the WBA to the status of “super champion,” while at the same time Jorge Arce had won a fight which made him the interim champion. Nashiro was now the “regular” champion. So in one weight class in the WBA, you had three champions all at the same time. That’s ridiculous isn’t? It’s literally impossible to properly follow the sport.

BM: Yes, but to be the devils advocate on this, titles years back meant a lot. Nowadays titles don’t really mean much. You know why? Three years ago 90% of Filipinos thought Manny Pacquiao was a world champion. Manny Pacquiao hadn’t been a world champion for about three or four years. It’s the name that people go to see nowadays. Manny Paquiao was the WBC international champion. Everyone presumed he was the world champion. Not that he wasn’t capable of being but he hadn’t fought for the world title in a few years. So to contradict you to a degree, having those three titles in one weight division doesn’t really mean anything because one of the fights here is Arce. People are going to see Arce fight. They don’t care whether he’s a champion or not. People go to see Manny Pacquiao because he’s Manny Pacquiao. People go to see Oscar de la Hoya because of the name.

TL: So we’ve entered an era where the proliferation of title belts has gotten so out of control that actually what matters in this era of high tech communication where everyone all over the world can follow the sport is the names and good fights.

BM: 100%. It doesn’t matter if they are world champions either. If you get a local boy, Harry Shwarz fighting against Pedro Garcia knowing they are both only C plus fighters but they are there to fight, I think that’s all that matters. Look at Arturo Gatti and Mickey Ward. Neither of those guys is an A plus fighter, but, wow, three of the greatest fights in history. That’s what it’s all about. The names and who you’re fighting and the standard and the matchmaking. Matchmaking is an art.

TL: So you would suggest to any managers and promoters out there, make good fights and you will do well.

BM: Yes, and boxing needs a shot in the arm with people like that because now you have the mixed martial arts, the K1’s on the scene doing very well. They’re marketed well, they’re matched well. Boxing is missing the boat with lousy matchmaking and lousy titles.

TL: Let’s talk about refereeing. You’ve always been known as a referee who stays out of the way. That’s my favorite kind of referee, the one you don’t really notice during a fight.

BM: You wouldn’t have liked me the last fight with the blood all over me with the Mexican and the Japanese. That was a brawl.(laughs)

TL: Why is it that some referees employ your tactics in which you stay out of the way of the fighters, while other referees seem to get involved more with the fights.

BM: Two aspects probably. One is that they like to be seen on TV. And the other one is that they are just trying too hard. Maybe they’re not relaxed enough. I wouldn’t say they are trying to be on the camera, they just get carried away with the situation and panic a little bit and that can happen.

TL: What does the average fan not see that you see being inside the ring up close during a boxing match?

BM: The condition of the fighter. A lot of people say it’s the legs but more than the legs it’s the eyes. With a slight delay concussion in the ring with punches I can see the eyes starting to go. In fact I had a fight, Jeff Fenich against Shingaki. Shingaki thought I was hitting him, he was looking at me. The crowd doesn’t see that. I stopped the fight without a knockdown. I was crucified for it but the public couldn’t see that. But from experience you notice these things, that the guy could’ve been seriously hurt. You know that when he’s looking at me thinking that I’m hitting him, you know that he’s really concussed. Little things like that. Also where to stand. For example a lot of referees don’t stand on the open side of a southpaw and orthodox boxer. They don’t see the low blows, they don’t see the elbows, they don’t see the head butt because they’re not positioned correctly. So positioning is very important and it’s part of picking up how a fighter is and what is a legal blow and an illegal blow.

TL: So you often have to educate people after a fight when they come up to you and complain ‘Why did you stop it? Why did you do this?”

BM: No I don’t because I’ve decided if somebody’s already made up their mind that you’ve done something wrong, they’ve already got a closed mind. So I never defend myself. I think actions speak louder than words. You go see a fight, see what I do and if I made mistakes, sure, but you try to limit them. At times I try to watch a fight that I’ve done, just to see what mistakes, if I’ve made any, so I can improve on it. And that’s what I like about some of the young referees now. They come up to me and ask me to criticize them and don’t hold back. And I respect that out of a young referee. A lot of guys their egos are that big they don’t want to be criticized. And when you get a young referee asking to be critiqued, I admire them and I go out of my way to help them as much as I can. And I‘ve seen two or three even in the Philippines that have come on very well just because they’ve gone out of the way to improve themselves which I think is commendable.

TL: What are the main things you tell them about being a good referee?

BM: Positioning. Where to stand. Which side to stand. When to move. When not to move. Little things like that. It also goes down to diet. I see so many referees, Filipinos in particular, who will have a full meal 20 minutes before they get into the ring. Things like that, you condition yourself. I won’t take alcohol, I won’t eat, I’ll have a salad or pasta in the morning before a fight and that’ll be it. I’ll take an Imodium in case you have to go to the bathroom during the fight which could be a little bit embarrassing. You keep yourself in shape. In defense of my age a lot of people say ‘At your age why are you still in the ring?’ I say, ‘Well I know guys who are 35 or 40 who shouldn’t be in the ring. It depends on your diet, your fitness and your movement. When my legs go, I go.

TL: You’ve traveled all over the world in your capacity as a referee. I know you’ve been to some very far away places that no referee has ever been to.

BM: And none want to probably(laughs).

TL: One of them I recall you went to Siberia to referee a fight. What was that like?

BM: Siberia was 36 hours door to door. 14 degrees below zero when I got there. And the fight was held on an ice hockey rink with the ice still on it. So it wasn’t a very nice situation. It was the first professional fight, a WBC International, so it was the first title fight since the Soviet Union broke up. And they were so gracious, they really took good care of me, except I got very sick because of the cold weather. And they invited me back again for the next fight and being a man who likes to share, I gave someone else the opportunity instead of me. I think that was my gracious way of not going back.

TL: You still travel all over the place from week to week. Do you still enjoy the travel and the action of the fights?

BM: I don’t enjoy the travel as much as I used to. In the old days I’d run to the airport. Now it’s a little bit of a drag. So if I could press a button and be there, yes I love the situation of being at the fights. You don’t need drugs. That’s the biggest adrenalin an athlete can have in his life, the atmosphere, the circumstances and the competition. Who needs drugs?

TL: What are some of the other fascinating places you’ve refereed?

BM: I did one of the first ever pro fights in Hungary. I did the first professional championship fight in China, Croatia, Ukraine. A lot of these were first time because in the communist bloc they never had professional boxing. So about five or six countries I’ve done the first professional fight in history, which is quite a thrill and an honor. I’ve been very fortunate to have the opportunity.

TL: With the popularity of mixed martial arts now, where do you see the sport of boxing heading in the future?

BM: Professional boxing will never die because it’s taking over from the gladiatorial days. Having a heavyweight champion of the world is still looked upon as boxing. Now we’re going through a lean era in the heavyweights. But it’s still looked upon as the greatest competition man can have, to be looked upon as the champion of the world in boxing. What we lack though is a lot of marketing. The mixed martial arts, their marketing, their websites are outstanding. Boxing’s website are terrible. So we need a kick in the butt.

TL: How about here in Asia. Obviously you have a lot of inside knowledge about boxing in Asia. What do you see as the future of boxing in Asia? Where is it going and what can be done to improve it?

BM: You have to send them(fighters) to the States to get the international exposure. Then they can come back which is coming to fruition now. As I mentioned here’s Viloria, Donaire and Penalosa are all fighting back in Manila. This is absolutely fantastic. They’ve had the exposure overseas so people know who they are. Same as Concepcion, even Jose(Sulaiman) has made comments, ‘Who’s this new boy from the Philippines?” That exposure would never come if he’d have just stayed at home.

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Email Ted Lerner at ted@tedlerner.com